I don’t think Paul is a Gary Stu. Yes, he’s superhuman but he spent his entire childhood being trained in the Bene Gesserit way. He spent countless hours sparring with Duncan and Gurney. Thufur and Yueh trained his mind and weapons. So it’s not like he didn’t put in the hours before the melange supercharged him. Plus, Paul was fallible. “Dune” is meant to be a cautionary tale against eugenics, against greed, against hubris, against power as it always corrupts.
If anyone in the Duneiverse is a Mary Sue, it would be Duncan Idaho. The forever-loyal orphan rescued from a torture planet, trained in swordsmanship, chivalry, diplomacy, and getting it on with the ladies. The Duncan ghola has all that knowledge plus now he’s a Mentat. Every Duncan is perfect, even in death. By “Chapterhouse: Dune” he’s also a sex God, able to control Honored Matres using only his superior penis and sexxxxxing skills.
Disney explicitly changing Rey into a "somebody" via a genetic tie to Palpatine in order to placate very online assholes was really depressing and sadly a bit ahead of its time with the eugenics bullshit. I actively hate that movie and I think it's the only movie to ever give me a migraine while watching it (it's just bad even without the Rey stuff).
I've only seen the most recent Dune movies. They're mildly interesting because Paul is definitely a Mary Sue but it's like they know it's a bit ridiculous so they make Zendaya almost break the fourth wall every so often to go "yeah I know *eyeroll*". If they just make him the savior that some of the Fremen think he is in the 3rd movie it would be a waste. Feels like they might have something different in mind though?
This is fascinating to me, I learned a lot. I've never read any fan-fic. I'm not a big enough fan of any series that has any, or else I would definitely give it a try.
I have to say, I don't agree with you at ALL on this, Noah. Paul Atreides is definitely part of the "Mighty Whitey" trope—hard to argue otherwise about a Pale Caucasian from another planet who is a mix of T.E. Lawrence and Mohammed, who descends on Brown Person's World Arakkis and who is, after showing off his futuristic Mad Kung Fu Skillz, embraced as their Messiah.
But I don't think he's a male Mary Sue (or as I prefer to call them, "Jack Ryan", after Tom Clancy's authorial self-insert hero! 😎) by virtue of the book's ambiguity about Paul and his ideals versus his actions in the first novel, and in later novels their clear highlight of Paul and his son Leto II as a cautionary tale against Messiahs and Messianic movements.
I think that oversimplifying of Paul Atreides as a character comes more from the movies/television miniseries, because even if you're aware of the pitfalls (as Denis Villeneuve clearly is—and David Lynch clearly wasn't!) of trying to present a critique of White Saviours that's also an exciting movie lots of people will want to see, it's well-nigh impossible to do so without your audience skipping the message and vibing on the thrilling action and beautiful production design instead. The same thing happened to Coppola with APOCALYPSE NOW—while he clearly meant it to be antiwar (especially the Vietnam War), plenty of soldiers watch it now as a trippy war movie to get them jazzed to go into action.
So, I think Herbert was conflicted, but ultimately his effort to critique colonialism is badly undermined by his Mary Sue impulses; he loves Paul so much, and loves the Tarzan colonial tropes so much, that he ends up just making Paul more and more awesome—so awesome in fact that he ends up as the only real critic of his own colonial violence. Which is fucked up, imo.
::making Paul more and more awesome—so awesome in fact that he ends up as the only real critic of his own colonial violence::
No...? (A very ambivalent "No", which I'm not sure how to present with just text!) (https://youtu.be/gq8FPpQpC2M is how I imagine saying "No" here.)
It's not simply Paul—the Authorial Voice, especially in DUNE MESSIAH, CHILDREN OF DUNE, and GOD-EMPEROR OF DUNE, is also highly critical of Paul, and Emperor Leto II.
But, yeah, no argument that Herbert was in love with "Tarzan colonial tropes".
I was also thinking he was modelled on Lawrence-- this line from Noah brought him to mind: 'And he truly comes into his own when he goes slumming on the desert planet Arrakis becoming the leader of the Arab-analog, desert-dwelling Fremen. Despite himself, Dune declares, Paul will lead those barbarians on "jihad", turning the "bloody swords and fanatic legions" against the civilized universe.'
Oh, T.E. Lawrence is a definite inspiration for Paul Atreides!
But Paul's success in his *jihad*, and in his leading the Arab-analog, desert-dwelling Fremen plays much more like, to take a page from Noah, a White Savior version of Mohammed.
Lawrence, at least from what little I know of the man, seems to have been treated more as a "useful idiot" prancing around in his white robes by most of the Bedouin leaders and the British Government, both of whom used him to further their own aims.
Also, if you want to dig a bit deeper, try Huston Smith's THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS, which is a broader version of the book my Dad read while I was growing up, THE RELIGIONS OF MAN. For a man who was both Conservative and Christian, Dad was surprisingly pluralistic, especially for the 1960s.
I'd recommend reading the section on Islam if your family still has it.
While Huston Smith's viewpoint is clearly a Christian one (he was the son of Methodist Missionaries), he's the kind of pluralistic Christian that was a lot more common during the Cold War, when the alternative was believed to be "Godless Communism". 🙄
I don’t think Paul is a Gary Stu. Yes, he’s superhuman but he spent his entire childhood being trained in the Bene Gesserit way. He spent countless hours sparring with Duncan and Gurney. Thufur and Yueh trained his mind and weapons. So it’s not like he didn’t put in the hours before the melange supercharged him. Plus, Paul was fallible. “Dune” is meant to be a cautionary tale against eugenics, against greed, against hubris, against power as it always corrupts.
If anyone in the Duneiverse is a Mary Sue, it would be Duncan Idaho. The forever-loyal orphan rescued from a torture planet, trained in swordsmanship, chivalry, diplomacy, and getting it on with the ladies. The Duncan ghola has all that knowledge plus now he’s a Mentat. Every Duncan is perfect, even in death. By “Chapterhouse: Dune” he’s also a sex God, able to control Honored Matres using only his superior penis and sexxxxxing skills.
Fear of Mary sue is the mind killer.
Disney explicitly changing Rey into a "somebody" via a genetic tie to Palpatine in order to placate very online assholes was really depressing and sadly a bit ahead of its time with the eugenics bullshit. I actively hate that movie and I think it's the only movie to ever give me a migraine while watching it (it's just bad even without the Rey stuff).
I've only seen the most recent Dune movies. They're mildly interesting because Paul is definitely a Mary Sue but it's like they know it's a bit ridiculous so they make Zendaya almost break the fourth wall every so often to go "yeah I know *eyeroll*". If they just make him the savior that some of the Fremen think he is in the 3rd movie it would be a waste. Feels like they might have something different in mind though?
This is fascinating to me, I learned a lot. I've never read any fan-fic. I'm not a big enough fan of any series that has any, or else I would definitely give it a try.
I have to say, I don't agree with you at ALL on this, Noah. Paul Atreides is definitely part of the "Mighty Whitey" trope—hard to argue otherwise about a Pale Caucasian from another planet who is a mix of T.E. Lawrence and Mohammed, who descends on Brown Person's World Arakkis and who is, after showing off his futuristic Mad Kung Fu Skillz, embraced as their Messiah.
But I don't think he's a male Mary Sue (or as I prefer to call them, "Jack Ryan", after Tom Clancy's authorial self-insert hero! 😎) by virtue of the book's ambiguity about Paul and his ideals versus his actions in the first novel, and in later novels their clear highlight of Paul and his son Leto II as a cautionary tale against Messiahs and Messianic movements.
I think that oversimplifying of Paul Atreides as a character comes more from the movies/television miniseries, because even if you're aware of the pitfalls (as Denis Villeneuve clearly is—and David Lynch clearly wasn't!) of trying to present a critique of White Saviours that's also an exciting movie lots of people will want to see, it's well-nigh impossible to do so without your audience skipping the message and vibing on the thrilling action and beautiful production design instead. The same thing happened to Coppola with APOCALYPSE NOW—while he clearly meant it to be antiwar (especially the Vietnam War), plenty of soldiers watch it now as a trippy war movie to get them jazzed to go into action.
So, I think Herbert was conflicted, but ultimately his effort to critique colonialism is badly undermined by his Mary Sue impulses; he loves Paul so much, and loves the Tarzan colonial tropes so much, that he ends up just making Paul more and more awesome—so awesome in fact that he ends up as the only real critic of his own colonial violence. Which is fucked up, imo.
::making Paul more and more awesome—so awesome in fact that he ends up as the only real critic of his own colonial violence::
No...? (A very ambivalent "No", which I'm not sure how to present with just text!) (https://youtu.be/gq8FPpQpC2M is how I imagine saying "No" here.)
It's not simply Paul—the Authorial Voice, especially in DUNE MESSIAH, CHILDREN OF DUNE, and GOD-EMPEROR OF DUNE, is also highly critical of Paul, and Emperor Leto II.
But, yeah, no argument that Herbert was in love with "Tarzan colonial tropes".
I was also thinking he was modelled on Lawrence-- this line from Noah brought him to mind: 'And he truly comes into his own when he goes slumming on the desert planet Arrakis becoming the leader of the Arab-analog, desert-dwelling Fremen. Despite himself, Dune declares, Paul will lead those barbarians on "jihad", turning the "bloody swords and fanatic legions" against the civilized universe.'
Oh, T.E. Lawrence is a definite inspiration for Paul Atreides!
But Paul's success in his *jihad*, and in his leading the Arab-analog, desert-dwelling Fremen plays much more like, to take a page from Noah, a White Savior version of Mohammed.
Lawrence, at least from what little I know of the man, seems to have been treated more as a "useful idiot" prancing around in his white robes by most of the Bedouin leaders and the British Government, both of whom used him to further their own aims.
I guess i need to read about Mohammed! Thanks
The Bouffant of All Knowledge, Wikipedia, is hardly a complete source, but it's a place to start - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad .
Also, if you want to dig a bit deeper, try Huston Smith's THE WORLD'S RELIGIONS, which is a broader version of the book my Dad read while I was growing up, THE RELIGIONS OF MAN. For a man who was both Conservative and Christian, Dad was surprisingly pluralistic, especially for the 1960s.
LOL! We probably have the religions of man from my grandfather, honestly
I'd recommend reading the section on Islam if your family still has it.
While Huston Smith's viewpoint is clearly a Christian one (he was the son of Methodist Missionaries), he's the kind of pluralistic Christian that was a lot more common during the Cold War, when the alternative was believed to be "Godless Communism". 🙄