I have always felt uneasy about the incel conversation and the way the label is hurled as an insult in progressive circles. You’ve done an excellent job of laying out the logic behind my discomfort. It’s also the knowledge that behind the rage is a person who is being failed by our society. They are ripe for the incel propaganda because we are not set up to nurture healthy masculinity. Individual families and local communities can do this, but overall, we only offer one vision of what it means to be a man, and that is to dominate others, often violently. If a young person is unlucky enough to only see that version in the relationships around them, that is what they will understand. And they see it as a path to power.
Patriarchy does fail and harm men. at the same time, people who embrace violent misogyny are morally at fault, imo? Like, they are definitely failing society and making society worse. so my sympathy for them is limited!
I agree, and I have the perspective of being a middle school teacher, where I see things that make it really hard to sleep at night. I see these horrible people, and I wonder what happened to them. I might just be a bleeding heart liberal though🤣
I agree with your opinion here. This is a really difficult subject to talk about, and the more in-depth you get the more confusing it can become. I think because of that (maybe not consciously for everyone) people feel like the surface condemnation is enough. For the reasons you listed that's just not going to be very helpful to anyone.
I've never ever thought about 'incels' in the way you're arguing against... is it common? I mean the whole concept is that they're assuming an identity they circumstantially inhabit... seems to me like you handled it much more healthily, by treating just as that and not a crusade, which allowed you to easily become a non-incel and never a misogynist!
Interesting, because I have never considered men who simply don't date but wish they could as "incels." For me, it has always been the misogyny some people embrace, for blaming the women for their plight, that makes an incel--particularly when they act out that blame ON women. So to some extent, castigating liberals for dissing "incels" is really a matter of definition one has to probe.
There is another form of misogyny, what I call misogyny lite, that is still rampant in our culture and I think is behind the failure of 2020 Biden voters to go out and VOTE for Harris. That is the feeling amongst educated, generally liberal men (and women) that yes, women have rights and should be in the workplace but.....leaders? Nah, that's not right, women just aren't up to snuff as leaders, able to tell men what to do. We see it in the glass ceiling, in pay disparities, in above all male habits like mansplaining, interrupting, ignoring a woman's contribution in a meeting and then proposing that very contribution themselves. Ruth Bader Ginsburg memorably described experiencing that very thing; I experienced it as a professional in a male dominated sector of the legal industry. Until that goes, we really aren't getting many women into positions of power unless, like Bondi, they have bent the knee to men already.
Look, being an incel is no excuse for being hateful and resentful. Hell, I was an incel before it was fashionable—but I fell in love with a woman and she with me anyway, and we got married and were together for forty years before we broke up.
There's a nasty sense of entitlement to the incel mindset that your entire post just ignores—that belief that the Prom Queen should just date you just because you have a dick. It's a mindset I had myself when I was younger, and it's one I'm deeply ashamed of now.
my point is just what you're saying here; that the problem with incels is not that they aren't in a relationship. the problem is that they're violent misogynists. People confuse those things, and I think they shouldn't.
To me the issue is—are all incels violent misogynists, or is it that their sense of entitlement often curdles them into violent misogynists when things keep not going their way? Something that happens a lot, thanks to the very people they worship like Donald Trump and Elon Musk—people people like this are idiots!
I have always felt uneasy about the incel conversation and the way the label is hurled as an insult in progressive circles. You’ve done an excellent job of laying out the logic behind my discomfort. It’s also the knowledge that behind the rage is a person who is being failed by our society. They are ripe for the incel propaganda because we are not set up to nurture healthy masculinity. Individual families and local communities can do this, but overall, we only offer one vision of what it means to be a man, and that is to dominate others, often violently. If a young person is unlucky enough to only see that version in the relationships around them, that is what they will understand. And they see it as a path to power.
Thank you for helping me make sense of this.
Patriarchy does fail and harm men. at the same time, people who embrace violent misogyny are morally at fault, imo? Like, they are definitely failing society and making society worse. so my sympathy for them is limited!
I agree, and I have the perspective of being a middle school teacher, where I see things that make it really hard to sleep at night. I see these horrible people, and I wonder what happened to them. I might just be a bleeding heart liberal though🤣
I agree with your opinion here. This is a really difficult subject to talk about, and the more in-depth you get the more confusing it can become. I think because of that (maybe not consciously for everyone) people feel like the surface condemnation is enough. For the reasons you listed that's just not going to be very helpful to anyone.
I've never ever thought about 'incels' in the way you're arguing against... is it common? I mean the whole concept is that they're assuming an identity they circumstantially inhabit... seems to me like you handled it much more healthily, by treating just as that and not a crusade, which allowed you to easily become a non-incel and never a misogynist!
This piece should be part of every introductory course to logic.
Excellent passing of contexts and meanings!
That’s unlikely to happen! Very kind of you to say though; thanks!
The word passing was dictated as “parsing”.
If I could only take time to edit…
Interesting, because I have never considered men who simply don't date but wish they could as "incels." For me, it has always been the misogyny some people embrace, for blaming the women for their plight, that makes an incel--particularly when they act out that blame ON women. So to some extent, castigating liberals for dissing "incels" is really a matter of definition one has to probe.
There is another form of misogyny, what I call misogyny lite, that is still rampant in our culture and I think is behind the failure of 2020 Biden voters to go out and VOTE for Harris. That is the feeling amongst educated, generally liberal men (and women) that yes, women have rights and should be in the workplace but.....leaders? Nah, that's not right, women just aren't up to snuff as leaders, able to tell men what to do. We see it in the glass ceiling, in pay disparities, in above all male habits like mansplaining, interrupting, ignoring a woman's contribution in a meeting and then proposing that very contribution themselves. Ruth Bader Ginsburg memorably described experiencing that very thing; I experienced it as a professional in a male dominated sector of the legal industry. Until that goes, we really aren't getting many women into positions of power unless, like Bondi, they have bent the knee to men already.
the term was originally coined by a woman (I think a queer woman?) who wanted to talk about problems with dating with other people.
The word is completely ruined now, of course.
Look, being an incel is no excuse for being hateful and resentful. Hell, I was an incel before it was fashionable—but I fell in love with a woman and she with me anyway, and we got married and were together for forty years before we broke up.
There's a nasty sense of entitlement to the incel mindset that your entire post just ignores—that belief that the Prom Queen should just date you just because you have a dick. It's a mindset I had myself when I was younger, and it's one I'm deeply ashamed of now.
So I don't even get your point here.
my point is just what you're saying here; that the problem with incels is not that they aren't in a relationship. the problem is that they're violent misogynists. People confuse those things, and I think they shouldn't.
Okay, we can sure agree on that!
To me the issue is—are all incels violent misogynists, or is it that their sense of entitlement often curdles them into violent misogynists when things keep not going their way? Something that happens a lot, thanks to the very people they worship like Donald Trump and Elon Musk—people people like this are idiots!