I agree with your analysis. One thing that I think all Christians have to believe to be Christians (and not just admirers of the ethics) is that only Christians get to heaven. They may be tolerant of "non-believers" though they have to ignore all sorts of theology based on the exclusion of Christians from Everlasting Life. And like ALL religions that believe they are the one path to Truth, they necessarily are at root supremacist no matter how nice they are to their neigbhors.
The thing that worries me most about the establishment of some kind of Theocracy in American is not just what that does to those who don't share the nominal "religion" in charge, but what will happen as the various sects of Christianity become more aware that their own definitions of truth vary from those of others nominally their fellow Christians. Wars of religion are bloody and irrational and are not just Crusades against Muslims or expulsions of Jews. They are the 30 years war and the French Wars of Religion and Bloody Mary/Elizabeth I vying for how many folks they can burn. Once someone in a "dominant religion" starts muttering the word "heretic" all hell breaks loose. If the expletive "Jesus Christ" is blasphemy, what happens to the word "Sheesh?"
I agree with a good bit of this, but...Christians don't have to believe that only Christians go to heaven. Lots of Christians think that all good people go to heaven, and/or that everyone goes to heaven. Christianity is a very old, very diverse tradition; people believe lots of things! That's why I'm wary of any claim that there's a core of Christian tradition and that evangelical white christians are violating it.
Definitely. Universalism is the belief that a loving god doesn't burn people for eternity over petty shit. It has a history as old as the United State.
I'm not sure I agree, though I suspect that a lot of "Christian adjacent" folks consider themselves Christian. But "all those who believe in me shall have everlasting life" is a direct teaching, unlike all the Leviticus crap so beloved by the Evangelicals. Perhaps there is wiggle room in what "believe in me" means, or the connected idea that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, though I don't know whether the latter is a direct teaching or a conclusion. But I'm speaking from a long repudiated upbringing as an Episcopalian.
There are, of course, branch religions which accept the ethical teachings without putting Christ himself central. There is something of a problem distinguishing Christianity as a tradition from Christianity as a religion. The tradition has become so encrusted with political views, from Paul on, that it is hard to tell exactly what it all means. And hence the wars.
right, but...the point is that *there is no core teaching.* There's no core essence to a 2000 plus year global religion. There are lots of different kinds of Christianity, many denominations, and no court or arbiter who decides which is "real Christianity" and which is not.
That goes for good aspects of Christianity and bad. Christianity is just what Christians do. There have historically been lots of Christians who haven't emphasized or believed in the idea that all non Christians go to hell for eternal suffering! Dante doesn't even have all non christians suffering for eternity, really!
The Christian Left, like Faithful America and Sojourners, are admirable people—but their weakness is that they won't come down like Jesus on the Pharisees and Hypocrites of the Religious Right. Too many good people who happen to be Christian refuse to repudiate what I call, and will keep calling, the "KKKHrister Right" in any all of its forms—they act like they're merely "mistaken", and not Evil and Wrong which they all are in their bigotry and worship of false idols like Donald Trump, George W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan.
This is why I stepped away from Christianity as a teen and have never been compelled to step back—MY Jesus is the one played by Victor Garber in GODSPELL (yes, that's a young hippie Victor Garber), who sings "Alas For You" against the ugly, kludgy machinery of Mainstream Religion before pushing it over and cursing them as "Blind Fools!":
Too much Christianity is attached more to the teachings of Paul than that of Jesus, or his "Rock" Peter. I'm curious, Susan—is it Jesus who said "You can ONLY get into Heaven by believing in me?", or is it the snake oil salesman formerly known as Saul of Tarsis...?
EDIT: Apparently Jesus said it in Matthew 7: 21-23, and John 14:6, so—good luck with my trying to blame it all on Paul!
Making excuses for religion is like making excuses for a thorn in your side that you could just fucking remove and be done with it. There is no reason for any argument on any level to be tortured through the filter of religion. There Doesn't need to be a justification for doing the right thing for the right reason. Religion actually confuses and muddies simple moral questions thereby allowing immoral conclusions to be drawn
I see what you mean, but I've never made an argument Where I cite my non-belief as proof of anything. As a justification for anything. That's The difference. There are a lot of atheists who are huge assholes. In fact pretty much all of the incel DudeBros are "atheists" ....I dunno, I just think moral questions and Explorations can be pursued on their own merit. Kind of like religion creates an unneccesary middleman when directness and clarity are in order. But let me be clear. I agree with all of the arguments In your article. This is just kind of a sidebar thing
I'll Add that I grew up going to an Episcopal church and the people there including the priest are still dear family friends almost 50 years later...So like you say...Christianity is too many things to many people to be able to say practically ANYTHING about it!
Evangelicals don’t consider catholics and orthodox “true christians”. Forgive me for not giving a fuck that some guy don’t consider evangelicals, (or the crusades, or the inquisition) “true christians”. That does nothing to change what christianity is.
I agree with your analysis. One thing that I think all Christians have to believe to be Christians (and not just admirers of the ethics) is that only Christians get to heaven. They may be tolerant of "non-believers" though they have to ignore all sorts of theology based on the exclusion of Christians from Everlasting Life. And like ALL religions that believe they are the one path to Truth, they necessarily are at root supremacist no matter how nice they are to their neigbhors.
The thing that worries me most about the establishment of some kind of Theocracy in American is not just what that does to those who don't share the nominal "religion" in charge, but what will happen as the various sects of Christianity become more aware that their own definitions of truth vary from those of others nominally their fellow Christians. Wars of religion are bloody and irrational and are not just Crusades against Muslims or expulsions of Jews. They are the 30 years war and the French Wars of Religion and Bloody Mary/Elizabeth I vying for how many folks they can burn. Once someone in a "dominant religion" starts muttering the word "heretic" all hell breaks loose. If the expletive "Jesus Christ" is blasphemy, what happens to the word "Sheesh?"
I agree with a good bit of this, but...Christians don't have to believe that only Christians go to heaven. Lots of Christians think that all good people go to heaven, and/or that everyone goes to heaven. Christianity is a very old, very diverse tradition; people believe lots of things! That's why I'm wary of any claim that there's a core of Christian tradition and that evangelical white christians are violating it.
Definitely. Universalism is the belief that a loving god doesn't burn people for eternity over petty shit. It has a history as old as the United State.
I'm not sure I agree, though I suspect that a lot of "Christian adjacent" folks consider themselves Christian. But "all those who believe in me shall have everlasting life" is a direct teaching, unlike all the Leviticus crap so beloved by the Evangelicals. Perhaps there is wiggle room in what "believe in me" means, or the connected idea that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, though I don't know whether the latter is a direct teaching or a conclusion. But I'm speaking from a long repudiated upbringing as an Episcopalian.
There are, of course, branch religions which accept the ethical teachings without putting Christ himself central. There is something of a problem distinguishing Christianity as a tradition from Christianity as a religion. The tradition has become so encrusted with political views, from Paul on, that it is hard to tell exactly what it all means. And hence the wars.
right, but...the point is that *there is no core teaching.* There's no core essence to a 2000 plus year global religion. There are lots of different kinds of Christianity, many denominations, and no court or arbiter who decides which is "real Christianity" and which is not.
That goes for good aspects of Christianity and bad. Christianity is just what Christians do. There have historically been lots of Christians who haven't emphasized or believed in the idea that all non Christians go to hell for eternal suffering! Dante doesn't even have all non christians suffering for eternity, really!
Here's the franciscans rejecting the idea that there are only christians in heaven: https://www.franciscanmedia.org/ask-a-franciscan/only-christians-in-heaven/
Ah, but Dante doesn’t let them go to heaven, either. But I’ve always considered that a plus, given what he thinks Heaven is like.
"Wars of religion are bloody and irrational and are not just Crusades against Muslims or expulsions of Jews"
See: Ireland in the 20th century
yep. The Troubles certainly made me blink about my Irish identity.
The Christian Left, like Faithful America and Sojourners, are admirable people—but their weakness is that they won't come down like Jesus on the Pharisees and Hypocrites of the Religious Right. Too many good people who happen to be Christian refuse to repudiate what I call, and will keep calling, the "KKKHrister Right" in any all of its forms—they act like they're merely "mistaken", and not Evil and Wrong which they all are in their bigotry and worship of false idols like Donald Trump, George W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan.
This is why I stepped away from Christianity as a teen and have never been compelled to step back—MY Jesus is the one played by Victor Garber in GODSPELL (yes, that's a young hippie Victor Garber), who sings "Alas For You" against the ugly, kludgy machinery of Mainstream Religion before pushing it over and cursing them as "Blind Fools!":
https://youtu.be/HXA18tDrUUE?si=HBxeBYlKusiunsvu
Too much Christianity is attached more to the teachings of Paul than that of Jesus, or his "Rock" Peter. I'm curious, Susan—is it Jesus who said "You can ONLY get into Heaven by believing in me?", or is it the snake oil salesman formerly known as Saul of Tarsis...?
EDIT: Apparently Jesus said it in Matthew 7: 21-23, and John 14:6, so—good luck with my trying to blame it all on Paul!
Making excuses for religion is like making excuses for a thorn in your side that you could just fucking remove and be done with it. There is no reason for any argument on any level to be tortured through the filter of religion. There Doesn't need to be a justification for doing the right thing for the right reason. Religion actually confuses and muddies simple moral questions thereby allowing immoral conclusions to be drawn
eh. atheism has major problems too. I'm not opposed to christianity or any religion—again, largely because what religion means is highly variable!
I see what you mean, but I've never made an argument Where I cite my non-belief as proof of anything. As a justification for anything. That's The difference. There are a lot of atheists who are huge assholes. In fact pretty much all of the incel DudeBros are "atheists" ....I dunno, I just think moral questions and Explorations can be pursued on their own merit. Kind of like religion creates an unneccesary middleman when directness and clarity are in order. But let me be clear. I agree with all of the arguments In your article. This is just kind of a sidebar thing
I'll Add that I grew up going to an Episcopal church and the people there including the priest are still dear family friends almost 50 years later...So like you say...Christianity is too many things to many people to be able to say practically ANYTHING about it!
LOL!
Great article.
Evangelicals don’t consider catholics and orthodox “true christians”. Forgive me for not giving a fuck that some guy don’t consider evangelicals, (or the crusades, or the inquisition) “true christians”. That does nothing to change what christianity is.