Damn near every day here in Memphis there's a report of some horrible shooting or homicide (technically crime is down like in a lot of cities but it's still really high). There was a big story about a year ago about a woman murdered by someone who had previously committed a serious crime. That story along with the constant drudge of awful crime news has led to a consensus that the DA and his lack or rigor in denying bail and getting light sentences is the biggest problem with crime in Memphis now.
It's infuriating and exhausting that I hear this everywhere both for the reasons you lay out here and because it diverts attention away from the rampant poverty and gun availability that are the main causes (to be fair people do talk about guns but TN Republicans are some of the worst people in the world and don't really let us do much about it). Thanks for this piece though, Noah. If I'm in a feisty mood I might cite it on reddit to at least give people some pushback on the bullshit.
The corporate slavery that exists in our prisons means they’re not going anywhere. It’s truly disgusting and horrifying that we have literal slavery condoned to enrich already rich people. It makes me wonder if we have learned anything.
These corporations need prisoners, so the violence and brutality that lead to more crime later are actually part of the plan.
I don't think that forced labor really is what makes prisons so difficult to dismantle? once you have prisons entrenched, capitalism is going to try to make use of them, and then you've got interests that fight for them—but the main impetus for mass incarceration was racism and a desire to control and police discriminated against populations, I think.
so I don't think that like outlawing prison work would necessarily change incentives or improve things much. (though raising prison wages would help people incarcerated in a range of ways.)
they're not mutually exclusive at all? we can be talking about different people and different crimes. the most violent criminals aren't likely to reoffend, but putting people in prison increases the chances of offending—including esp offenses for less violent crimes. there's no contradiction.
Yes, solitary was originally seen as humane. It was not then, and isn’t now. Good intentions often lead to horrific outcomes, which has long been a problem with prison reform.
There are numerous restorative justice approaches which ppl are working on. That’s not the point of this piece though, which is pretty narrowly arguing that incapacity doesn’t work unless you feel crime is fine as long as it is directed at prisoners. I still don’t know if you agree with that or not.
The piece points out that part of the reason for lower rates among violent offenders may be that their sentences are longer so they're more likely to be older when they get out.
I'm happy to discuss these issues, and of course I make errors like anyone else. I don't really understand your belligerence, or your accusatory tone? They both really seem unnecessary.
"Are you being disingenuous or just having a lark?"
That's a personal accusation of bad faith, Caz. So, yes, that's a personal attack and an insult. Maybe you didn't really think about what you were saying? That happens. It doesn't make me eager to engage, though, especially when you then refuse to acknowledge what you've said.
"That one link is one link, one piece of research, of which thousands accumulate every year on this topic."
Sure, but...you haven't provided any links or evidence at all? And I'm not even really sure what you're arguing at this point. More imprisonment? Less imprisonment? More focus on deterrence? Less focus on deterrence?
To me dismissing abolitionist arguments without really engaging them seems glib? I understand these convos can be difficult, but scattershot accusations and dismissing evidence you don't like doesn't seem like a helpful way to talk about this topic. My central claim is that incapacitation is ineffective because crime and violence in prison is rampant, and if you see prisoners as human beings you should care about whether they are being brutalized, too. Do you disagree with that?
But doesn't your first sentence prove his point, @Caz Hart? If the US had a better recidivism rate, you'd at least begin to pose an argument that the way we conduct our prisons is conducive to rehabilitation, but alas these evil people just can't overcome their evilness. But there is so much data (and anecdotes) that shows this not to be the case. And then there is your quoted data, too to support this data...
oh boy, I didn't read the whole thread. Whoops. My bad. Sorry. Anyway, "They increase it by creating populations without rights." is such a great quote. Thank you for that!
Damn near every day here in Memphis there's a report of some horrible shooting or homicide (technically crime is down like in a lot of cities but it's still really high). There was a big story about a year ago about a woman murdered by someone who had previously committed a serious crime. That story along with the constant drudge of awful crime news has led to a consensus that the DA and his lack or rigor in denying bail and getting light sentences is the biggest problem with crime in Memphis now.
It's infuriating and exhausting that I hear this everywhere both for the reasons you lay out here and because it diverts attention away from the rampant poverty and gun availability that are the main causes (to be fair people do talk about guns but TN Republicans are some of the worst people in the world and don't really let us do much about it). Thanks for this piece though, Noah. If I'm in a feisty mood I might cite it on reddit to at least give people some pushback on the bullshit.
The corporate slavery that exists in our prisons means they’re not going anywhere. It’s truly disgusting and horrifying that we have literal slavery condoned to enrich already rich people. It makes me wonder if we have learned anything.
These corporations need prisoners, so the violence and brutality that lead to more crime later are actually part of the plan.
I don’t know how we end this.
I don't think that forced labor really is what makes prisons so difficult to dismantle? once you have prisons entrenched, capitalism is going to try to make use of them, and then you've got interests that fight for them—but the main impetus for mass incarceration was racism and a desire to control and police discriminated against populations, I think.
so I don't think that like outlawing prison work would necessarily change incentives or improve things much. (though raising prison wages would help people incarcerated in a range of ways.)
The photograph of the below ground isolation Cell is arresting.
It recalls the discovery of tiger cages used during the war on Vietnam to put “enemy” families down in deep pits topped with mesh.
Your first section could use some editing to make stronger points and avoid phrases like “not very likely to convict crimes again“.
Really liked the identification of “punishment justly inflicted on bad people”
Outside of Trump how do we even decide someone is a bad person? Would love to hear more about this concept.
Thanks very much!
I'm not sure why you're presenting this as some sort of refutation of anything I said?
Among other things, I said, "imprisoning people tends to make them more likely to offend in the future".
they're not mutually exclusive at all? we can be talking about different people and different crimes. the most violent criminals aren't likely to reoffend, but putting people in prison increases the chances of offending—including esp offenses for less violent crimes. there's no contradiction.
Yes, solitary was originally seen as humane. It was not then, and isn’t now. Good intentions often lead to horrific outcomes, which has long been a problem with prison reform.
There are numerous restorative justice approaches which ppl are working on. That’s not the point of this piece though, which is pretty narrowly arguing that incapacity doesn’t work unless you feel crime is fine as long as it is directed at prisoners. I still don’t know if you agree with that or not.
I mean, I provided the source.
I didn't say anything about miracles? I feel like you're arguing with someone you've made up, rather than with me?
Here's a discussion of reoffense rates. violent criminals are least likely to reoffend, and for everyone reoffenses tend to be public order crimes like parole violations. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-common-is-it-for-released-prisoners-to-re-offend/
The piece points out that part of the reason for lower rates among violent offenders may be that their sentences are longer so they're more likely to be older when they get out.
I'm happy to discuss these issues, and of course I make errors like anyone else. I don't really understand your belligerence, or your accusatory tone? They both really seem unnecessary.
"Are you being disingenuous or just having a lark?"
That's a personal accusation of bad faith, Caz. So, yes, that's a personal attack and an insult. Maybe you didn't really think about what you were saying? That happens. It doesn't make me eager to engage, though, especially when you then refuse to acknowledge what you've said.
"That one link is one link, one piece of research, of which thousands accumulate every year on this topic."
Sure, but...you haven't provided any links or evidence at all? And I'm not even really sure what you're arguing at this point. More imprisonment? Less imprisonment? More focus on deterrence? Less focus on deterrence?
To me dismissing abolitionist arguments without really engaging them seems glib? I understand these convos can be difficult, but scattershot accusations and dismissing evidence you don't like doesn't seem like a helpful way to talk about this topic. My central claim is that incapacitation is ineffective because crime and violence in prison is rampant, and if you see prisoners as human beings you should care about whether they are being brutalized, too. Do you disagree with that?
But doesn't your first sentence prove his point, @Caz Hart? If the US had a better recidivism rate, you'd at least begin to pose an argument that the way we conduct our prisons is conducive to rehabilitation, but alas these evil people just can't overcome their evilness. But there is so much data (and anecdotes) that shows this not to be the case. And then there is your quoted data, too to support this data...
I don’t think she’s reading. She blocked me, I believe.
oh boy, I didn't read the whole thread. Whoops. My bad. Sorry. Anyway, "They increase it by creating populations without rights." is such a great quote. Thank you for that!