Less “cleverly,” my meaning was that after all these months of seeing bombed-out Ukraine as something to oppose, the heavy-bombing response to Hamas being described as something to support rings false. Maybe we’ve just collectively seen too many hostage rescue fictions tho.
Biden's got a tricky dance, having to show support for both sides on a—I don't want to ennoble it by calling it a "war", more like an atrocity which begat a far larger atrocity, which seems to be what both Hamas and Netanyahu's cabal wanted! His original response was strongly pro-Israel (I really wish he hadn't publicly hugged that PoS Netanyahu) which appalled Palestinian-Americans, including Rep. Rashida Tlaib, as well as pro-Israel but anti-Likkud Jewish and non-Jewish allies.
I'm not going to not vote for him because of it, but I'm glad to see groups and individuals holding Biden's feet to the fire over this....
Yeah, but it's Uncle Joe, Who's Movin' Kinda Slow, Biden! Fourth-Dimensional Chess isn't something he's ever shown any aptitude for—Checkers is more his speed.
I'm with Noah on this one—I doubt seriously Biden pressed Netanyahu for much of anything until he realized supporting Israel wasn't unanimously popular, and the Trump Right going after Tlaib for the most bigoted of reasons might have finally moved him to a more...balanced approach.
Not that Biden's ever been all that...sensitive when it comes to race, as fellow Substacker Rohn Kenyatta's pointed out more than once—https://rohnkenyatta.substack.com/p/if-you-aint-black-dont-call-me-boy , https://rohnkenyatta.substack.com/p/joe-see-and-the-pussycat-average . (The man was friends with Klansman Robert Byrd, for Gods' sake!) I'm certain his handlers gave him a list of "Never, EVER Say This!" when he was Obama's VP, and had somebody standing just off-camera with a vaudeville hook just in case he forgot and launched into some racist story like "Corn Pop"....
Well, at least he eventually got to pushing for a cease-fire, so—Yay, Joe?
Regardless of one’s analytical framework and whether Zionism is essential or anathema, there is a fundamental cognitive dissonance when humans see devastated Gaza called evil after over a year of devastation of Ukraine’s “good.”
there are a lot of people who think occupation in Palestine and Ukraine are both bad, I think? but yeah, there's a subset of the left that's anti Ukraine and it sucks.
Israel is a U.S. foreign policy project. Whatever happens for good or ill is a direct result of U.S. foreign policy. This project precedes Biden and will outlast him and any successors.
Israel's its own country? US foreign policy matters, but it's hardly the only factor there. Certainly Biden and Obama would have much preferred that Netanyahu not be prime minister, just for starters.
US support is solid because of *domestic* political concerns mostly. and Biden appears to have applied considerable pressure to facilitate the current ceasefire, which Netanyahu would rather have avoided.
I don't want to take too much credit away from protestors, but if you read any of the many available accounts of the negotiations, these negotations have been ongoing from the start (well maybe October 9 or 10 and not 7) and the Biden administration has more or less always been involved. Does this particular ceasefire and hostage exchange and its timing owe much to the protests? I really can't tell, but I do think you exaggerate quite a lot with one exception: Netanyahu does seem to really have been pushed by Israeli protests to bring the hostages home quickly. Maybe those protests are impacted by protests here in the US, but I actually doubt that very much. I remain pessimistic that we get the peace you are looking for or that protests in the US will have much to do with getting it or not. I find this interview with an Israeli peace activist and frequent party to negotiations between Israel and Hamas (including these) insightful https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/11/why-did-israel-and-hamas-finally-reach-a-deal.html It will be very hard for Israel to let this end with Hamas in power in Gaza.
Certainly Israeli protestors have had a big role in forcing Netanyahu into a hostage exchange that by all appearances he didn't want. There's lots of reporting that Biden and Democrats have been scrambling to deal with the protests here, which were largely unexpected...and some reporting that Biden's attitude and understanding (of casualty figures for example) has been directly affected by talking with protestors and Arab groups. maybe voter input just doesn't matter, but Biden's always been notable for trying to be at the center of Democratic party opinion. having that opinion shift radically seems likely to have affected his actions.
Certainly I believe Biden is listening to his constituents, its one of his many admirable characteristics. But I also think that he's a great politician in another sense: I don't think there was any leverage to be gained with Netanyahu or the Israeli government by making the earliest call for a cease fire. And some to be gained, or at least not lost, by vocally and aggressively supporting Israel. Biden is a great triangulator and not just of domestic voters. And I think he's the rare politician who would rather negotiate peace successfully and be blamed for what it took to do that than negotiate poorly and get a polling bump. Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu actually wants peace and those are the two parties one has to get to negotiate it. I don't see any reason to believe that Biden pursuing a different strategy sooner would have led to an earlier ceasefire. He'll certainly take the credit for listening to protesters even if it wasn't a key factor.
And in genuinely wonderful news, the ceasefire extends two more days, 20 more Israelis will be released, 60 more Palestinians, perhaps some additional third country nationals caught in the cross fire.
in theory the ceasefire is supposed to continue to extend a day for every ten israelis released...there's a limit to how many captives there are, and I think a limit to how many Hamas itself has (other groups took hostages)...but hopefully we get at least a few more days...
I'm pointing to concurrent news headlines announcing two more days. It is a bit more complicated than your portray, as far as I can tell, the hostages to be released are named in advance, as are the prisoners to be released by Israel. And that info pours like sand through several channels mostly in Qatar. Just minutes before the extension was announced, there were worries about today's releases going awry. One should pay attention to the tremendous labor being done on all sides for each release and the fragility of the process. So yes, each 10 hostages is another day, but its not like Hamas can just load them onto a bus the day of and get an extra day. If this lasts till Hamas is running out of hostages to return, I will be very pleasantly surprised.
::It will be very hard for Israel to let this end with Hamas in power in Gaza.::
For Israel...or for the Netanyahu extremists, who are curtailing Israeli civil liberties if they don't march in goosestep with Bibi and his genocidal plans for the Gaza? To say nothing of his judicial "reforms", which would protect him from accountability for his corruption on top of everything else? (I can envision Trump stroking his multiple chins and going "hmmm....")
While the Hamas attack on Israel probably galvanized temporary support for Netanyahu (and his cult), it seems to be fading fast. I wonder how long the Israelis who aren't happy with dead Palestinians on their souls, or don't see this current campaign ending...ever, will tolerate it.
I don't expect whoever replaces Bloodthirsty Bibi to embrace Hamas, but I suspect his behavior, and the behavior of those in power who support him, has horrified enough Israelis that they might be willing to reform their country's behavior, at least somewhat, towards Palestinians.
I was actually referring to the interview with the Israeli peace activist posted above with that remark. He was much less equivocal, he straight up said this would not end with Hamas still controlling Gaza. I don't think that was him suggesting his preference, just him pointing to an Israeli political reality. Look him up and read the interview, its quite informative and he's devoted his life to a two state solution and rights for Palestinians. And yes, Bibi is going to make this worse by trying to cling to power as support for him doing that has cratered. Part of why its going to be particularly hard to negotiate peace in this moment is that the Israeli body politic is in convulsions. Maybe it is an opportunity. But I know a lot of smart people in Israel, many of whom were involved in street protests almost daily over the last couple of years. A lot of them are trying to leave or considering leaving. They know more than I do and the fact that they are giving up and going into voluntary exile does not fill me with optimisim. The choice between living with Palestinian blood on your hands and living under constant threat of sudden attack by Hamas and its ilk isn't a great one. For those with the resources, there is the third option of leaving. And this is people for whom Israel is the only home they have ever known, leaving is not an easy choice.
Yes, although I fumbled my point.
Less “cleverly,” my meaning was that after all these months of seeing bombed-out Ukraine as something to oppose, the heavy-bombing response to Hamas being described as something to support rings false. Maybe we’ve just collectively seen too many hostage rescue fictions tho.
It wasn’t Biden’s war so he didn’t want to be seen as the puppet master of it, I’m sure. Otherwise yeah, agree with all of this.
Biden's got a tricky dance, having to show support for both sides on a—I don't want to ennoble it by calling it a "war", more like an atrocity which begat a far larger atrocity, which seems to be what both Hamas and Netanyahu's cabal wanted! His original response was strongly pro-Israel (I really wish he hadn't publicly hugged that PoS Netanyahu) which appalled Palestinian-Americans, including Rep. Rashida Tlaib, as well as pro-Israel but anti-Likkud Jewish and non-Jewish allies.
I'm not going to not vote for him because of it, but I'm glad to see groups and individuals holding Biden's feet to the fire over this....
For sure. Biden hugged Bibi in public and then pulled hard privately. He’s always done that sort of thing.
Yeah, but it's Uncle Joe, Who's Movin' Kinda Slow, Biden! Fourth-Dimensional Chess isn't something he's ever shown any aptitude for—Checkers is more his speed.
I'm with Noah on this one—I doubt seriously Biden pressed Netanyahu for much of anything until he realized supporting Israel wasn't unanimously popular, and the Trump Right going after Tlaib for the most bigoted of reasons might have finally moved him to a more...balanced approach.
Not that Biden's ever been all that...sensitive when it comes to race, as fellow Substacker Rohn Kenyatta's pointed out more than once—https://rohnkenyatta.substack.com/p/if-you-aint-black-dont-call-me-boy , https://rohnkenyatta.substack.com/p/joe-see-and-the-pussycat-average . (The man was friends with Klansman Robert Byrd, for Gods' sake!) I'm certain his handlers gave him a list of "Never, EVER Say This!" when he was Obama's VP, and had somebody standing just off-camera with a vaudeville hook just in case he forgot and launched into some racist story like "Corn Pop"....
Well, at least he eventually got to pushing for a cease-fire, so—Yay, Joe?
Regardless of one’s analytical framework and whether Zionism is essential or anathema, there is a fundamental cognitive dissonance when humans see devastated Gaza called evil after over a year of devastation of Ukraine’s “good.”
I have opposed Russian aggression in Ukraine since 2014.
there are a lot of people who think occupation in Palestine and Ukraine are both bad, I think? but yeah, there's a subset of the left that's anti Ukraine and it sucks.
Israel is a U.S. foreign policy project. Whatever happens for good or ill is a direct result of U.S. foreign policy. This project precedes Biden and will outlast him and any successors.
Israel's its own country? US foreign policy matters, but it's hardly the only factor there. Certainly Biden and Obama would have much preferred that Netanyahu not be prime minister, just for starters.
Nevertheless you may note U.S. support not only unwavering, but increasing... presidents don’t have final say over the MIC.
US support is solid because of *domestic* political concerns mostly. and Biden appears to have applied considerable pressure to facilitate the current ceasefire, which Netanyahu would rather have avoided.
I don't want to take too much credit away from protestors, but if you read any of the many available accounts of the negotiations, these negotations have been ongoing from the start (well maybe October 9 or 10 and not 7) and the Biden administration has more or less always been involved. Does this particular ceasefire and hostage exchange and its timing owe much to the protests? I really can't tell, but I do think you exaggerate quite a lot with one exception: Netanyahu does seem to really have been pushed by Israeli protests to bring the hostages home quickly. Maybe those protests are impacted by protests here in the US, but I actually doubt that very much. I remain pessimistic that we get the peace you are looking for or that protests in the US will have much to do with getting it or not. I find this interview with an Israeli peace activist and frequent party to negotiations between Israel and Hamas (including these) insightful https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/11/why-did-israel-and-hamas-finally-reach-a-deal.html It will be very hard for Israel to let this end with Hamas in power in Gaza.
Certainly Israeli protestors have had a big role in forcing Netanyahu into a hostage exchange that by all appearances he didn't want. There's lots of reporting that Biden and Democrats have been scrambling to deal with the protests here, which were largely unexpected...and some reporting that Biden's attitude and understanding (of casualty figures for example) has been directly affected by talking with protestors and Arab groups. maybe voter input just doesn't matter, but Biden's always been notable for trying to be at the center of Democratic party opinion. having that opinion shift radically seems likely to have affected his actions.
Certainly I believe Biden is listening to his constituents, its one of his many admirable characteristics. But I also think that he's a great politician in another sense: I don't think there was any leverage to be gained with Netanyahu or the Israeli government by making the earliest call for a cease fire. And some to be gained, or at least not lost, by vocally and aggressively supporting Israel. Biden is a great triangulator and not just of domestic voters. And I think he's the rare politician who would rather negotiate peace successfully and be blamed for what it took to do that than negotiate poorly and get a polling bump. Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu actually wants peace and those are the two parties one has to get to negotiate it. I don't see any reason to believe that Biden pursuing a different strategy sooner would have led to an earlier ceasefire. He'll certainly take the credit for listening to protesters even if it wasn't a key factor.
And in genuinely wonderful news, the ceasefire extends two more days, 20 more Israelis will be released, 60 more Palestinians, perhaps some additional third country nationals caught in the cross fire.
in theory the ceasefire is supposed to continue to extend a day for every ten israelis released...there's a limit to how many captives there are, and I think a limit to how many Hamas itself has (other groups took hostages)...but hopefully we get at least a few more days...
I'm pointing to concurrent news headlines announcing two more days. It is a bit more complicated than your portray, as far as I can tell, the hostages to be released are named in advance, as are the prisoners to be released by Israel. And that info pours like sand through several channels mostly in Qatar. Just minutes before the extension was announced, there were worries about today's releases going awry. One should pay attention to the tremendous labor being done on all sides for each release and the fragility of the process. So yes, each 10 hostages is another day, but its not like Hamas can just load them onto a bus the day of and get an extra day. If this lasts till Hamas is running out of hostages to return, I will be very pleasantly surprised.
::It will be very hard for Israel to let this end with Hamas in power in Gaza.::
For Israel...or for the Netanyahu extremists, who are curtailing Israeli civil liberties if they don't march in goosestep with Bibi and his genocidal plans for the Gaza? To say nothing of his judicial "reforms", which would protect him from accountability for his corruption on top of everything else? (I can envision Trump stroking his multiple chins and going "hmmm....")
While the Hamas attack on Israel probably galvanized temporary support for Netanyahu (and his cult), it seems to be fading fast. I wonder how long the Israelis who aren't happy with dead Palestinians on their souls, or don't see this current campaign ending...ever, will tolerate it.
I don't expect whoever replaces Bloodthirsty Bibi to embrace Hamas, but I suspect his behavior, and the behavior of those in power who support him, has horrified enough Israelis that they might be willing to reform their country's behavior, at least somewhat, towards Palestinians.
I was actually referring to the interview with the Israeli peace activist posted above with that remark. He was much less equivocal, he straight up said this would not end with Hamas still controlling Gaza. I don't think that was him suggesting his preference, just him pointing to an Israeli political reality. Look him up and read the interview, its quite informative and he's devoted his life to a two state solution and rights for Palestinians. And yes, Bibi is going to make this worse by trying to cling to power as support for him doing that has cratered. Part of why its going to be particularly hard to negotiate peace in this moment is that the Israeli body politic is in convulsions. Maybe it is an opportunity. But I know a lot of smart people in Israel, many of whom were involved in street protests almost daily over the last couple of years. A lot of them are trying to leave or considering leaving. They know more than I do and the fact that they are giving up and going into voluntary exile does not fill me with optimisim. The choice between living with Palestinian blood on your hands and living under constant threat of sudden attack by Hamas and its ilk isn't a great one. For those with the resources, there is the third option of leaving. And this is people for whom Israel is the only home they have ever known, leaving is not an easy choice.
Oh, I see! Yeah, that doesn't sound very optimistic, does it...?