This whole Gaza nightmare has brought the the forefront a real problem for non Jewish people who want to fight antisemitism but also can’t abide the actions of Israel. Hearing that I am antisemitic because I don’t agree with the way Israel is going after Hamas is hard to hear, and I have no idea what I’m supposed to do about it. Support the bombing and starving of civilians and children? Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel, and I support their right to defend themselves, but there’s got to be another way. What’s happening there now is a horror, the latest horror. the earth beneath Israel is soaked in so much blood, thousands of years of human misery. How can one patch of earth be worth that?
fwiw, most scholars of the conflict that I've seen don't really think the conflict is 1000s of years old in any meaningful sense. It's really a modern/contemporary mess, starting pretty much in the late 19th/early 20th century.
Lots of Jewish ppl (like me!) are opposed to Israel's occupation and the current horrific attack on Gaza. So I don't think opposing that is antisemitic, though opposition is also unfortunately a way for some antisemites (like Candace Owens) to try to launder their hate.
I meant all of the conflict there, not just the current one. I’m don’t know a lot of the history, but I remember learning about what Rome did (was that Titus?) in Jerusalem, and there have been (if I’m remembering right) a number of times that Jerusalem was conquered. I open to the idea that I am wrong on this.
oh, there's certainly been a long history of various kinds of conflict...but that's the case in most places where we have records going back that long!
You are right of course that the contemporary problem started with the rise of zionism and encouraging Jewish people to return to Palestine. Zionism originated as a refuge for Jewish anti-semitism in Europe and became "it has always been our land because gave it to us." While I do not believe most Israeli Jews feel that way, on the other the religious purists who do believe the land is divinely theirs have an undue political influence.
While I don't know if Netanyahu is a religious Jew himself, he strongly allies himself with that ideology and it has benefited him politically.
There is also a misconception of Americans that the Israeli elections are for candidates. This is untrue. Israelis vote for parties and the party then selects its members into the Knesset. Netanyahu is a member of the Likud party, once very strong but in the last election the party took a shellacking and doesn't have a strong voice in the Knesset, so Netanyahu allied himself with the stronger religious right parties to form a government.
That is the problem when we Americans talk about voting him out of power. Nearly three out of four voters against Likud to get Netanyahu out of power, but Likud reinstalled him because they thought he would be able to lead them back into power by his capacity to unite with the religious parties. But of the 120 seats in the Knesset, only barely over a fourth are Likud seats (32) but the rightist parties that allied to form his government added 32 more and they have a majority of 64-56.
And so we are left with the religious zealots who do believe Israel is their god-given inheritance dominating the political landscape. And those religious and the concept of being able to return and control the land as a divine right is of great historical relevance.
Therein lies an issue that sets the majority of the people in Israel wanting to find a refuge being controlled by a minority who see slaughtering Gazans in the same light as Joshua's killing every person as unclean that lived in the land.
So even though they don't come out and say it, they are certainly attempting to justify their slaughter and/or removal of Palestinians as a religious right through their actions.
Because of that, it makes the problem at hand, much more ancient in nature than the zionist return.
Should you, Noah, be an Israeli, your thoughts would be in the majority it seems, by electoral votes. But it is both 1000's of years old and a very contemporary mess because the religious right in Israel, just as the religious right in America, are using religious origins that are not really true to justify their very contemporary efforts.
And thus you are completely correct, it is a modern/contemporary mess and the historicity used by the religious is no more valid that rightest Christians suggesting somehow Donald Trump will make America a Christian nation (again).
I don't know the solution to the political situation in Israel anymore than I know the solution to the political mess in America. But one thing is quite clear, the path both are on using a religiously inspired morality to obtain power is only going to make enemies and never find any solutions.
Maybe that is why the founders here-in America--said the two should not be mixed. Ironically-correct me if I'm incorrect-but I think the Israeli founding principles stated the same thing.
Just remind People that Israel is a country not a religion. But of course they know this. Trying to conflate the two is a deliberate right wing fascist tactic.
I had always thought that Zionism was a particular political movement WITHIN Judaism, rather like Christian Nationalism is a political movement within Christianity. Is there ANY rational basis for requiring Zionism of any Jew, either outside or inside Israel?
In fact, I'm not sure I really understand Zionism in the context of this war. Does it always oppose a two state solution? Does it always believe that all of Palestine should be Jewish? If so, how does it include Gaza, which in Biblical times was not part of Israel?
When people called me "antisemitic" for opposing the approach Israel is taking in this war, I always just asked if being anti-Putin makes me anti Orthodox Christian or being anti-Mike Johnson makes me anti-Christian. Or why the concept that Israel has a "right" to Gaza or the West Bank differs from Putin's belief that Russia has a "right" to Ukraine.
I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, just as Ukraine does. But how killing Palestinian civilians is "defense" is beyond me.
ack; lot of questions there, and the answers are somewhat complicated and disputed. Zionists will make broad claims that Jewish people have the right to their own state and that Jewish safety requires a state; those intertwined arguments are generally the basis for saying anyone who opposes zionism is antisemitic, I think. (Obviously I find these arguments unconvincing!)
Zionism doesn't require opposing a two state solution, at least in theory. Zionists supposedly oppose a situation in which Palestinians and Jews are all in a single state since then Palestinians would have more votes and it wouldn't be a Jewish state any more. In practice, Israel has undermined the two state solution and fought any recognition of Palestinian national aspirations.
I noticed that Stephanie Ruehl had Greenblatt on her show several times in October, calling him a dear friend (as MSNBC hosts are wont to do). I’m not sure if she continues to give her dear friend a platform as I gave up watching her for other reasons, but I found the eye-batting uncomfortable in the face of so much Jewish opposition to Israel’s current position.
There are lots of secular and atheist zionists, and many Christian ones, just as there is substantial religious Jewish opposition to Zionism. I think it’s important to be clear that religious Jewish ppl are not necessarily Zionist. Many of them are not.
This whole Gaza nightmare has brought the the forefront a real problem for non Jewish people who want to fight antisemitism but also can’t abide the actions of Israel. Hearing that I am antisemitic because I don’t agree with the way Israel is going after Hamas is hard to hear, and I have no idea what I’m supposed to do about it. Support the bombing and starving of civilians and children? Hamas poses an existential threat to Israel, and I support their right to defend themselves, but there’s got to be another way. What’s happening there now is a horror, the latest horror. the earth beneath Israel is soaked in so much blood, thousands of years of human misery. How can one patch of earth be worth that?
fwiw, most scholars of the conflict that I've seen don't really think the conflict is 1000s of years old in any meaningful sense. It's really a modern/contemporary mess, starting pretty much in the late 19th/early 20th century.
Lots of Jewish ppl (like me!) are opposed to Israel's occupation and the current horrific attack on Gaza. So I don't think opposing that is antisemitic, though opposition is also unfortunately a way for some antisemites (like Candace Owens) to try to launder their hate.
I meant all of the conflict there, not just the current one. I’m don’t know a lot of the history, but I remember learning about what Rome did (was that Titus?) in Jerusalem, and there have been (if I’m remembering right) a number of times that Jerusalem was conquered. I open to the idea that I am wrong on this.
oh, there's certainly been a long history of various kinds of conflict...but that's the case in most places where we have records going back that long!
You are right of course that the contemporary problem started with the rise of zionism and encouraging Jewish people to return to Palestine. Zionism originated as a refuge for Jewish anti-semitism in Europe and became "it has always been our land because gave it to us." While I do not believe most Israeli Jews feel that way, on the other the religious purists who do believe the land is divinely theirs have an undue political influence.
While I don't know if Netanyahu is a religious Jew himself, he strongly allies himself with that ideology and it has benefited him politically.
There is also a misconception of Americans that the Israeli elections are for candidates. This is untrue. Israelis vote for parties and the party then selects its members into the Knesset. Netanyahu is a member of the Likud party, once very strong but in the last election the party took a shellacking and doesn't have a strong voice in the Knesset, so Netanyahu allied himself with the stronger religious right parties to form a government.
That is the problem when we Americans talk about voting him out of power. Nearly three out of four voters against Likud to get Netanyahu out of power, but Likud reinstalled him because they thought he would be able to lead them back into power by his capacity to unite with the religious parties. But of the 120 seats in the Knesset, only barely over a fourth are Likud seats (32) but the rightist parties that allied to form his government added 32 more and they have a majority of 64-56.
And so we are left with the religious zealots who do believe Israel is their god-given inheritance dominating the political landscape. And those religious and the concept of being able to return and control the land as a divine right is of great historical relevance.
Therein lies an issue that sets the majority of the people in Israel wanting to find a refuge being controlled by a minority who see slaughtering Gazans in the same light as Joshua's killing every person as unclean that lived in the land.
So even though they don't come out and say it, they are certainly attempting to justify their slaughter and/or removal of Palestinians as a religious right through their actions.
Because of that, it makes the problem at hand, much more ancient in nature than the zionist return.
Should you, Noah, be an Israeli, your thoughts would be in the majority it seems, by electoral votes. But it is both 1000's of years old and a very contemporary mess because the religious right in Israel, just as the religious right in America, are using religious origins that are not really true to justify their very contemporary efforts.
And thus you are completely correct, it is a modern/contemporary mess and the historicity used by the religious is no more valid that rightest Christians suggesting somehow Donald Trump will make America a Christian nation (again).
I don't know the solution to the political situation in Israel anymore than I know the solution to the political mess in America. But one thing is quite clear, the path both are on using a religiously inspired morality to obtain power is only going to make enemies and never find any solutions.
Maybe that is why the founders here-in America--said the two should not be mixed. Ironically-correct me if I'm incorrect-but I think the Israeli founding principles stated the same thing.
Just remind People that Israel is a country not a religion. But of course they know this. Trying to conflate the two is a deliberate right wing fascist tactic.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say
I had always thought that Zionism was a particular political movement WITHIN Judaism, rather like Christian Nationalism is a political movement within Christianity. Is there ANY rational basis for requiring Zionism of any Jew, either outside or inside Israel?
In fact, I'm not sure I really understand Zionism in the context of this war. Does it always oppose a two state solution? Does it always believe that all of Palestine should be Jewish? If so, how does it include Gaza, which in Biblical times was not part of Israel?
When people called me "antisemitic" for opposing the approach Israel is taking in this war, I always just asked if being anti-Putin makes me anti Orthodox Christian or being anti-Mike Johnson makes me anti-Christian. Or why the concept that Israel has a "right" to Gaza or the West Bank differs from Putin's belief that Russia has a "right" to Ukraine.
I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, just as Ukraine does. But how killing Palestinian civilians is "defense" is beyond me.
ack; lot of questions there, and the answers are somewhat complicated and disputed. Zionists will make broad claims that Jewish people have the right to their own state and that Jewish safety requires a state; those intertwined arguments are generally the basis for saying anyone who opposes zionism is antisemitic, I think. (Obviously I find these arguments unconvincing!)
Zionism doesn't require opposing a two state solution, at least in theory. Zionists supposedly oppose a situation in which Palestinians and Jews are all in a single state since then Palestinians would have more votes and it wouldn't be a Jewish state any more. In practice, Israel has undermined the two state solution and fought any recognition of Palestinian national aspirations.
I noticed that Stephanie Ruehl had Greenblatt on her show several times in October, calling him a dear friend (as MSNBC hosts are wont to do). I’m not sure if she continues to give her dear friend a platform as I gave up watching her for other reasons, but I found the eye-batting uncomfortable in the face of so much Jewish opposition to Israel’s current position.
So much clear thinking well expressed here as in all your political commentary. This is why I am glad to subscribe
He needs to resign.
There are lots of secular and atheist zionists, and many Christian ones, just as there is substantial religious Jewish opposition to Zionism. I think it’s important to be clear that religious Jewish ppl are not necessarily Zionist. Many of them are not.
Ditto.
well, can't cover everything! have to leave something for commenters to explicate!