Noah I haven't even watched this show but this explanation of the colonizer "question" in Israel and Palestine on its own merits deserved a subscription IMO. Because this is so important right now and many people who need more information are not as open to it as they typically would be, precisely because they have never questioned Israel ever, not much.
My poor husband when I was describing your use of a sci-fi series: "Sounds like he's going to use'The Expanse'. That's the show I've been telling you I think you'd like for months. Repeatedly."
I have no memory of this. He didn't try to get me to watch by describing it in terms relating to the structure of settler colonialism though.
I was out of grad school before Post Colonial Theory became a thing, so I don't know much about its details and arguments. But I have always thought of colonialism as a power structure thing, defined by one group's use of the resources and people of another place, abstracting its resources (and often the using the labor of the colonized people) for the group's benefit without regard for the devastation wreaked on the other place. I agree that The Expanse shows that dynamic and ALSO shows that neither side is composed entirely of The Good Guys and the other the Bad Guys. Nothing inoculates an oppressed people from having Bad Guys. And what the world is seeing in Israel's leadership is revenge on an oppressed people for having the effrontery to have some bad guys.
So I find it fascinating to see the application to Israel and Gaza. I agree that, whether or not "ancient roots" are involved, the idea that "we were a colony so we can't be colonizers" is dumb. The US itself is a prime example: a beginning as classic colonies, turned colonizers as it expanded the Frontier. The dynamic is even stronger in the West Bank than in Gaza: after all, destroying all the resources is pretty counterproductive for a colonizer.
It appears that the 1948 division actually gave most of the useful resources of the area to Israel. Gaza, except for its now destroyed manufacturing industry (destroyed long before the recent events) is better seen as an analogy with the US system of reservations for dealing with Native Americans. The big refugee area in North Gaza is/was filled with refugees FROM the areas allotted to Israel. And in the West Bank the argument isn't so much "we are taking your resources for our benefit" as "that's our land and we want it back."
"Our" is defined by "because that's what our sacred books say." There were obviously people other than Hebrews at one point living on the land. Abraham, of course, MOVED to the area; he was an incomer. The battle of Jericho was not against other Hebrews, but against an indigenous population. And in Biblical times, Gaza was the home of the Phoenicians.
So I'm not sure that the power dynamic of colonialism is exactly what we are seeing; it is not a dynamic of USING the "colonies" so much as obliterating them. A power dynamic is certainly what is going on; I'm just not sure it is that one.
The colonizer argument regarding Israel often involves conflating two different aspects of the situation. If you say that the nation of Israel is a European colony established in 1948, you are ignoring a lot of history, are probably anti-Semitic, and should not be taken seriously. If you say that Israel is a colonial power in it’s control of the West Bank and Gaza, that is not an unreasonable way to describe the situation. But if you are not clear on what is the extent of the colony, you are probably not acting on good faith.
It's somewhat complicated...Zionists themselves often referred to their project as colonial, and saw it as linked to European colonial traditions, in the early 20th century and before 1948. Many people living in Israel now though are Middle Eastern Jews who fled from neighboring countries which became dangerous for Jewish people when they undertook their own nationalization projects.
But yes, I think, whatever the past, Israel is currently occupying and controlling the land on which Palestinians live, and has aspirations to dispossess them and settle that land. So it's acting as a colonial power now.
Nomads also live in places? Like, "the Palestinians didn't live there because they were nomads there" is self contradictory.
but again, if you will read the piece, you will see that my argument is that these efforts to establish Jewish primacy in the region are irrelevant deflections at best. Colonial power and colonial violence is not dependent on who lived where first.
I agree with the part about ignoring history, though I might phrase it as not being aware of Jewish history. I'm twitchy about using the word antisemitism to describe this phenomenon though. I'm seeing rhetoric online that is truly vile and I'm also hearing of bad behavior (e.g., confronting Jewish people in the street, defacing hostage posters). To me, antisemitism is more about these actions and rhetoric than beliefs about colonialism. (I'm a convert, btw.)
That's interesting. While I admit that I could probably rewatch the Expanse without thinking of anything present political, I learned something. Which is that you've (or rather those you are reading) have redefined the words "settler colonialism" to mean something quite different than I think those words mean in the English vernacular. Which finally makes some people's use of them, including yours, make more sense. Even if it doesn't make me think the US left vision of a future trajectory of Israel-Palestine is any more realistic than The Expanse.
I mean, colonialism is something there’s a lot of academic discussion about? I think engaging with the literature is a good idea when you’re trying to discuss current conflicts and issues.
It me thing about the expanse is that characters who suggest options other than genocide and violence are often told they are the unrealistic.
Noah I haven't even watched this show but this explanation of the colonizer "question" in Israel and Palestine on its own merits deserved a subscription IMO. Because this is so important right now and many people who need more information are not as open to it as they typically would be, precisely because they have never questioned Israel ever, not much.
My poor husband when I was describing your use of a sci-fi series: "Sounds like he's going to use'The Expanse'. That's the show I've been telling you I think you'd like for months. Repeatedly."
I have no memory of this. He didn't try to get me to watch by describing it in terms relating to the structure of settler colonialism though.
I was out of grad school before Post Colonial Theory became a thing, so I don't know much about its details and arguments. But I have always thought of colonialism as a power structure thing, defined by one group's use of the resources and people of another place, abstracting its resources (and often the using the labor of the colonized people) for the group's benefit without regard for the devastation wreaked on the other place. I agree that The Expanse shows that dynamic and ALSO shows that neither side is composed entirely of The Good Guys and the other the Bad Guys. Nothing inoculates an oppressed people from having Bad Guys. And what the world is seeing in Israel's leadership is revenge on an oppressed people for having the effrontery to have some bad guys.
So I find it fascinating to see the application to Israel and Gaza. I agree that, whether or not "ancient roots" are involved, the idea that "we were a colony so we can't be colonizers" is dumb. The US itself is a prime example: a beginning as classic colonies, turned colonizers as it expanded the Frontier. The dynamic is even stronger in the West Bank than in Gaza: after all, destroying all the resources is pretty counterproductive for a colonizer.
It appears that the 1948 division actually gave most of the useful resources of the area to Israel. Gaza, except for its now destroyed manufacturing industry (destroyed long before the recent events) is better seen as an analogy with the US system of reservations for dealing with Native Americans. The big refugee area in North Gaza is/was filled with refugees FROM the areas allotted to Israel. And in the West Bank the argument isn't so much "we are taking your resources for our benefit" as "that's our land and we want it back."
"Our" is defined by "because that's what our sacred books say." There were obviously people other than Hebrews at one point living on the land. Abraham, of course, MOVED to the area; he was an incomer. The battle of Jericho was not against other Hebrews, but against an indigenous population. And in Biblical times, Gaza was the home of the Phoenicians.
So I'm not sure that the power dynamic of colonialism is exactly what we are seeing; it is not a dynamic of USING the "colonies" so much as obliterating them. A power dynamic is certainly what is going on; I'm just not sure it is that one.
there can be various colonial dynamics. resource extraction is definitely one, but eliminating surplus populations is pretty common as well.
As I said, not really up on the Theory.
The colonizer argument regarding Israel often involves conflating two different aspects of the situation. If you say that the nation of Israel is a European colony established in 1948, you are ignoring a lot of history, are probably anti-Semitic, and should not be taken seriously. If you say that Israel is a colonial power in it’s control of the West Bank and Gaza, that is not an unreasonable way to describe the situation. But if you are not clear on what is the extent of the colony, you are probably not acting on good faith.
It's somewhat complicated...Zionists themselves often referred to their project as colonial, and saw it as linked to European colonial traditions, in the early 20th century and before 1948. Many people living in Israel now though are Middle Eastern Jews who fled from neighboring countries which became dangerous for Jewish people when they undertook their own nationalization projects.
But yes, I think, whatever the past, Israel is currently occupying and controlling the land on which Palestinians live, and has aspirations to dispossess them and settle that land. So it's acting as a colonial power now.
No; There were Israelites and Jewish people living in that territory before any "palestinians" lived in that territory; The Palestinians were nomads
Nomads also live in places? Like, "the Palestinians didn't live there because they were nomads there" is self contradictory.
but again, if you will read the piece, you will see that my argument is that these efforts to establish Jewish primacy in the region are irrelevant deflections at best. Colonial power and colonial violence is not dependent on who lived where first.
I agree with the part about ignoring history, though I might phrase it as not being aware of Jewish history. I'm twitchy about using the word antisemitism to describe this phenomenon though. I'm seeing rhetoric online that is truly vile and I'm also hearing of bad behavior (e.g., confronting Jewish people in the street, defacing hostage posters). To me, antisemitism is more about these actions and rhetoric than beliefs about colonialism. (I'm a convert, btw.)
That's interesting. While I admit that I could probably rewatch the Expanse without thinking of anything present political, I learned something. Which is that you've (or rather those you are reading) have redefined the words "settler colonialism" to mean something quite different than I think those words mean in the English vernacular. Which finally makes some people's use of them, including yours, make more sense. Even if it doesn't make me think the US left vision of a future trajectory of Israel-Palestine is any more realistic than The Expanse.
I mean, colonialism is something there’s a lot of academic discussion about? I think engaging with the literature is a good idea when you’re trying to discuss current conflicts and issues.
It me thing about the expanse is that characters who suggest options other than genocide and violence are often told they are the unrealistic.
This reminds me of the Kenyan response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But I'm not exactly sure why. https://youtu.be/jwDWxyLVBxk?si=ZIp9jqmIp8NDlbaO