As a professor, I found it interesting because I sometimes find this type of student who I find coming to my office or wanting more attention. Since graduate school, even. (Of course, it is not *only* them or not even *usually* them.) Sometimes they are Jordan Peterson fans. They aren’t even all white. I have had two Latino JP fans seek me out, one who was an immigrant who lives with his grandma. What’s noteworthy isn’t so much ‘this privileged person is hurting’ but ‘young people are seeking answers and very misleading ideas are flowing into the vacuum from the internet.’ The type of people who are being misled by bullshit matter to me as a teacher because they NEED ideas. Mostly, the students who need ideas are drawn to better ideas. (They also need ideas.)
They seek out this crap on the internet because they are naturally curious and their education is lacking. Yes, they usually have to come from communities where they will not be repelled by the racism and xenophobia. They usually have to be cisgender men. But not always. There are versions for others.
So I appreciated the essay because it showed something very revealing about education. E.g., he says that the young man’s views shifted tremendous *just from taking critical thinking.* Exactly! It’s not even *content* that changes how people think! It’s often *form.* These students, although generally fine to talk with, know that my views are the opposite of theirs, and certainly quite opposed to Jordan Peterson’s ideas. I am not at all interested in pushing any specific VIEWS on them. I simply want them to learn to reason better. The essay tries to show this is partly what it takes--not so much saying ‘oh, you should read MARX or FEMINISM or LEARN THE FACTS ABOUT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE. They certainly should learn more. But the fact is these people who are misinforming them are using spurious reasoning and are demagogues and on some level they know it and they can see it *from learning what counts as evidence* or maybe even learning *what counts as an informal fallacy.* It shows why education of any kind is valuable. It shows why my uncle who made a living picking up cans would never have fallen for a Donald Trump or a Jordan Peterson because his high school education had been so good. He loved to read books. We need to fight for education funding of all kinds, from primary to high school to junior college to university education. Education is our way out of this mess--maybe our only way out of this mess. And the right is attacking education because they know that.
I think education can be helpful for some...though I also think it's important to recognize that some very highly educated people (like Peterson!) can find bigotry pretty congenial...
My cousin who was the smartest most well read person I have ever known (entered Yale at 16, studied at Princeton’s Institute for Advanced Study, and in the course of his human rights project became the largest publisher of Russian Language books outside of the Soviet Union) voted for Trump.
Have not read the original piece but I will. You mention it, but something brings young men to Pererson. I assume some inherent misogyny or bigotry is the answer, right?
Here's the real answer. These boys were not raised right. Plain and simple. Either absence of parenting, as in having nannies chase your kids around and let the chips fall where they may, or straight-up indoctrinating your child in hate. Both produce bad dudes.
The first type us normies call, “douchebags.” But they usually have money. In fact, I believe the douchebaginess scale has a financial component.
The second type are also douchebags, but lack the capital to really flaunt it. Call them assholes. Their problem is that they do not have the interpersonal skills necessary to compete in almost any well-paying job. No family wealth to fall back on. These are dudes who legit want to talk with dudes at work about their coworker’s asses. “Locker room talk” in the open.
Or perhaps they use racially charged language with someone who they thought was “cool” and were promptly reported to HR. My point is they can't compete. That's Jordan Peterson guys.
I don't know that Peterson's fans are necessarily less affluent? I think it may be people who (like Trump supporters) *feel* like they're economically disadvantaged compared to marginalized people (women, Black people)...which isn't quite the same thing...
It’s true. Some people have disordered thinking because of who they are. They have some malevolence or deep insecurity and embrace a distorted worldview full of lies to cope with that. But SO many others are having their minds twisted who have the potential to turn out better--and it happens when they are young. You do see people snap out of it. The internet is full of stories where people stumble into the light just on their own. But I think this IS a collective matter. The misinformation and radicalization is social so the solution to this has to be social. If this is the case, maybe the left DOES have to take responsibility for other people’s enlightenment sometimes. (If it is possible.)
There haven’t been many top-down de-radicalization programs but many people credit the postwar education of Germans to the differences between Germans and Austrians about the Holocaust. Unfortunately, we were trying something like this FINALLY about slavery. We were finally trying to come to terms with slavery as a country. (This has been going on for about 50 years, in fact but it keeps getting rolled back.) And we see the reaction to that! So, although I think when it comes to individual radicalizers like Peterson we don’t even have to get specific content into people’s minds but simply show them up as charlatans we are tasked with a general education project, socially. Most people aren’t really good at this project. I think the reactions to this project were easier because it was not done very well. It’s a constant struggle. It really is the struggle of civilization. It can’t be about ‘winning’ in the social domain or about social domination of specific narratives. It will have to be about values. Personally, I think Nathan J. Robinson, who I don’t keep track of but who I do recall annoys people so perhaps this comment is also annoying for defending him, has the right idea generally in the essay because at least in my experience, showing people you value THEM as a person is a key building block to educating people. White cisgender straight people simply are personally
better off not wallowing in lies because nobody is better off wallowing in lies.
You’ll never convince the truly disordered ones but most young people are like this guy Benjamin who will be so benefitted if they can just afford college and get a good class that changes their life. Christopher Rufo is getting paid millions to stop this so I see this as a major battle now.
Robinson can be weird and annoying at times (he thinks belief in aliens should be a core progressive belief?) but I think he's generally in good faith and on the right side of things.
As a professor, I found it interesting because I sometimes find this type of student who I find coming to my office or wanting more attention. Since graduate school, even. (Of course, it is not *only* them or not even *usually* them.) Sometimes they are Jordan Peterson fans. They aren’t even all white. I have had two Latino JP fans seek me out, one who was an immigrant who lives with his grandma. What’s noteworthy isn’t so much ‘this privileged person is hurting’ but ‘young people are seeking answers and very misleading ideas are flowing into the vacuum from the internet.’ The type of people who are being misled by bullshit matter to me as a teacher because they NEED ideas. Mostly, the students who need ideas are drawn to better ideas. (They also need ideas.)
They seek out this crap on the internet because they are naturally curious and their education is lacking. Yes, they usually have to come from communities where they will not be repelled by the racism and xenophobia. They usually have to be cisgender men. But not always. There are versions for others.
So I appreciated the essay because it showed something very revealing about education. E.g., he says that the young man’s views shifted tremendous *just from taking critical thinking.* Exactly! It’s not even *content* that changes how people think! It’s often *form.* These students, although generally fine to talk with, know that my views are the opposite of theirs, and certainly quite opposed to Jordan Peterson’s ideas. I am not at all interested in pushing any specific VIEWS on them. I simply want them to learn to reason better. The essay tries to show this is partly what it takes--not so much saying ‘oh, you should read MARX or FEMINISM or LEARN THE FACTS ABOUT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE. They certainly should learn more. But the fact is these people who are misinforming them are using spurious reasoning and are demagogues and on some level they know it and they can see it *from learning what counts as evidence* or maybe even learning *what counts as an informal fallacy.* It shows why education of any kind is valuable. It shows why my uncle who made a living picking up cans would never have fallen for a Donald Trump or a Jordan Peterson because his high school education had been so good. He loved to read books. We need to fight for education funding of all kinds, from primary to high school to junior college to university education. Education is our way out of this mess--maybe our only way out of this mess. And the right is attacking education because they know that.
I think education can be helpful for some...though I also think it's important to recognize that some very highly educated people (like Peterson!) can find bigotry pretty congenial...
My cousin who was the smartest most well read person I have ever known (entered Yale at 16, studied at Princeton’s Institute for Advanced Study, and in the course of his human rights project became the largest publisher of Russian Language books outside of the Soviet Union) voted for Trump.
So well put. Thanks for clearly laying out this frustrating dynamic where the focus always remains on the privileged or prejudiced.
Have not read the original piece but I will. You mention it, but something brings young men to Pererson. I assume some inherent misogyny or bigotry is the answer, right?
Here's the real answer. These boys were not raised right. Plain and simple. Either absence of parenting, as in having nannies chase your kids around and let the chips fall where they may, or straight-up indoctrinating your child in hate. Both produce bad dudes.
The first type us normies call, “douchebags.” But they usually have money. In fact, I believe the douchebaginess scale has a financial component.
The second type are also douchebags, but lack the capital to really flaunt it. Call them assholes. Their problem is that they do not have the interpersonal skills necessary to compete in almost any well-paying job. No family wealth to fall back on. These are dudes who legit want to talk with dudes at work about their coworker’s asses. “Locker room talk” in the open.
Or perhaps they use racially charged language with someone who they thought was “cool” and were promptly reported to HR. My point is they can't compete. That's Jordan Peterson guys.
I don't know that Peterson's fans are necessarily less affluent? I think it may be people who (like Trump supporters) *feel* like they're economically disadvantaged compared to marginalized people (women, Black people)...which isn't quite the same thing...
It’s true. Some people have disordered thinking because of who they are. They have some malevolence or deep insecurity and embrace a distorted worldview full of lies to cope with that. But SO many others are having their minds twisted who have the potential to turn out better--and it happens when they are young. You do see people snap out of it. The internet is full of stories where people stumble into the light just on their own. But I think this IS a collective matter. The misinformation and radicalization is social so the solution to this has to be social. If this is the case, maybe the left DOES have to take responsibility for other people’s enlightenment sometimes. (If it is possible.)
There haven’t been many top-down de-radicalization programs but many people credit the postwar education of Germans to the differences between Germans and Austrians about the Holocaust. Unfortunately, we were trying something like this FINALLY about slavery. We were finally trying to come to terms with slavery as a country. (This has been going on for about 50 years, in fact but it keeps getting rolled back.) And we see the reaction to that! So, although I think when it comes to individual radicalizers like Peterson we don’t even have to get specific content into people’s minds but simply show them up as charlatans we are tasked with a general education project, socially. Most people aren’t really good at this project. I think the reactions to this project were easier because it was not done very well. It’s a constant struggle. It really is the struggle of civilization. It can’t be about ‘winning’ in the social domain or about social domination of specific narratives. It will have to be about values. Personally, I think Nathan J. Robinson, who I don’t keep track of but who I do recall annoys people so perhaps this comment is also annoying for defending him, has the right idea generally in the essay because at least in my experience, showing people you value THEM as a person is a key building block to educating people. White cisgender straight people simply are personally
better off not wallowing in lies because nobody is better off wallowing in lies.
You’ll never convince the truly disordered ones but most young people are like this guy Benjamin who will be so benefitted if they can just afford college and get a good class that changes their life. Christopher Rufo is getting paid millions to stop this so I see this as a major battle now.
Robinson can be weird and annoying at times (he thinks belief in aliens should be a core progressive belief?) but I think he's generally in good faith and on the right side of things.