frame of mind I believe those who demand freedom of speech for those who would cause violence and (demonstrably) incite murder, as we’ve seen neo nazi’s do, have no association with those who remember, descended from, heard first stories, looked at the tattoos on the arms of playmates mothers. Speak as an individual as you wish, but have no tolerance for the dissemination of hatred, whether ethnic or racial. It’s basic humanity, not censorship.
Content Moderation needs to be better here, the hands-off approach is not good when you have literal Nazis on your platform inciting violence. I don't want to hear the argument about free speech either, inciting violence is not free speech.
Thanks so much, and I was also unaware of this. Surely all the talent in cyberspace can be harnessed for better content moderation. Or some lurking Substacker will invent a way to flag these posts so readers are immediately informed. Hoping that Substack comes through to uphold its stated policy.
The actual tech of this platform is not that complex. They ought to listen to the concerns of the broader community, because the strength of the platform IS the collected and curated set of great writers who make their work available here. A new substack competitor with low overhead that won’t platform Nazis is a foregone outcome if they won’t.
as Jonathan's Atlantic article notes, the problem is in part that substack's owners *recommend fascist and racist accounts through their official publicity.* We'd like them to stop doing that.
Sure, let them say their shitty rhetoric. But should they be allowed to monetize and profit from it? No. Being a white supremacist shouldn’t be a lucrative career on any decent platform run by decent humans.
I kinda feel that way too. I’d give a wide berth to what I can clearly ID as a site promoting supremacy of any group. I see that as antithetical to everything I believe.
I have not found any substack that uses Nazi symbols. I’m pretty sure that I could comprehend content that advocated ideology that is offensive too so symbolism aside, I have and do see objectionable commentary that I avoid/dismiss.
I don’t think substack needs more censoring/moderation than that. I would need much more evidence that meaningful profits were made from either overt or covert promotion of truly hateful material.
Meanwhile ppl are promoting the support of terrorism that I’ve seen. Why is a hateful call for death okay as long as it comes from non white groups/organizations?
did you read Jonathan Katz's piece in the Atlantic? Richard Spencer is on here and makes thousands and thousands of dollars at least. If you don't know who Richard Spencer is, you can google.
Thank you. I will look up both. The Atlantic isn’t something I normally read so I’ll see if I can find that too.
No one is more alarmed or concerned about the situation in Israel or the widespread support of Hamas here and abroad. I am married to a Jew, have friends in Israel and attend a messianic congregation of both Jewish and gentile believers.
Hitler started as a “socialist”. Not a political position seen as far right. The line between far right or far left is non existent in reality so it’s past time we stopped pretending otherwise.
Hitler absolutely did not start as a socialist?! He is a far right figure; Nazism was a movement designed to create a far right mass politics to defeat the mass politics of the left. The line between far right and far left is in fact extremely glaring, which is why Hitler murdered socialists in large numbers.
Richard Evans' multi volume history of the third reich is a good place to start reading about these issues. Robert O. Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism is excellent also.
Aha. it's that word, "socialist" in "National Socialist?" That's where you're getting stuck, am I right?
Did you know that TV dinners don't contain any TVs, that hot dogs aren't actually made of dogs and that rock n' roll songs are almost never about rocks OR dinner rolls?
The first amendment protects the right speech free from government suppression. It does not apply to private individuals or organizations. I don’t have to allow Nazis to stand on my front porch and spout inflammatory rhetoric. I don’t see why you think Substack has to support hate speech and disinformation.
Thanks, Noah and others who wrote this letter. This is a huge problem. My concern, though, is that as with Twitter Substack's founders have little incentive to do anything about this while they continue to rake in the bucks off nazis – unless a critical mass of other writers earning an income leave the platform. It seems a few have, but the Substackers Against Nazis letter seems to be asking for those in power to change their policies (how often does that happen??) rather than proposing a solution, i.e, taking our writing elsewhere. I'm thinking about migrating to Ghost in the new year. I have very few paid subscribers so I wouldn't stand to lose financially. I know that could be an issue for others. But that's part of the problem, and I suspect Hamish and co are very well aware of that.
I'm not really sure what next steps are. I'm pretty reluctant to leave, since this is the only platform where I've ever gotten a sustainable income from contributions, pretty much. But yeah, I don't know what happens next.
Yes, this is a problem. There shouldn't be a situation where only those who can afford to leave can. Then again, like with Twitter, IG and FB, tying independent writing, art and progressive commentary/conversations to these free-market platforms has proven a real double-edged sword. And again, the owners are very well aware of that.
I am not as surprised as many over the proliferate resurragence of these despicable humans. They have been in the underbelly of America for a very long time. We have tried ignoring them and now here they are, almost in our living rooms, spueing their vileness as if it were just another point of view. No matter how many warnings we are given, somehow collectively, we refuse to believe the danger we are all in. I'm holding my breath.
Thinking about the extent of the ‘cultural revolution’ mayhem and those ffg little read books it’s a good thing I’m not God (whatever that means) because I’d have booped the ‘flood’ button.
The letter is first of all just asking substack’s founders not to promote white nationalists. If you oppose all censorship, you could push for them to stop banning adult content as a start.
Endorsed. In my most compassionate
frame of mind I believe those who demand freedom of speech for those who would cause violence and (demonstrably) incite murder, as we’ve seen neo nazi’s do, have no association with those who remember, descended from, heard first stories, looked at the tattoos on the arms of playmates mothers. Speak as an individual as you wish, but have no tolerance for the dissemination of hatred, whether ethnic or racial. It’s basic humanity, not censorship.
Consider it done. All of them.
Well, got nazi smears on here, so had to restrict it to paid subscribers. This is why having fascists on your platform isn’t great!
Thanks for sharing this! I didn't even know this problem existed.
yeah; we're trying to raise awareness as a first step in the hopes that we can get the owners to address the issue.
Content Moderation needs to be better here, the hands-off approach is not good when you have literal Nazis on your platform inciting violence. I don't want to hear the argument about free speech either, inciting violence is not free speech.
Thanks Noah. Like David Fisher, I had no idea about this.
Thanks so much, and I was also unaware of this. Surely all the talent in cyberspace can be harnessed for better content moderation. Or some lurking Substacker will invent a way to flag these posts so readers are immediately informed. Hoping that Substack comes through to uphold its stated policy.
I think I will write a little something something later and link it here. Do I have an opinion on Nazis. It's not a good one ..
The actual tech of this platform is not that complex. They ought to listen to the concerns of the broader community, because the strength of the platform IS the collected and curated set of great writers who make their work available here. A new substack competitor with low overhead that won’t platform Nazis is a foregone outcome if they won’t.
I'd rather hate groups speak out in public than in secret so I know upfront what to avoid or participate in. I am against silencing free speech.
as Jonathan's Atlantic article notes, the problem is in part that substack's owners *recommend fascist and racist accounts through their official publicity.* We'd like them to stop doing that.
Sure, let them say their shitty rhetoric. But should they be allowed to monetize and profit from it? No. Being a white supremacist shouldn’t be a lucrative career on any decent platform run by decent humans.
I kinda feel that way too. I’d give a wide berth to what I can clearly ID as a site promoting supremacy of any group. I see that as antithetical to everything I believe.
I have not found any substack that uses Nazi symbols. I’m pretty sure that I could comprehend content that advocated ideology that is offensive too so symbolism aside, I have and do see objectionable commentary that I avoid/dismiss.
I don’t think substack needs more censoring/moderation than that. I would need much more evidence that meaningful profits were made from either overt or covert promotion of truly hateful material.
Meanwhile ppl are promoting the support of terrorism that I’ve seen. Why is a hateful call for death okay as long as it comes from non white groups/organizations?
It’s evil no matter the source.
did you read Jonathan Katz's piece in the Atlantic? Richard Spencer is on here and makes thousands and thousands of dollars at least. If you don't know who Richard Spencer is, you can google.
Thank you. I will look up both. The Atlantic isn’t something I normally read so I’ll see if I can find that too.
No one is more alarmed or concerned about the situation in Israel or the widespread support of Hamas here and abroad. I am married to a Jew, have friends in Israel and attend a messianic congregation of both Jewish and gentile believers.
Hitler started as a “socialist”. Not a political position seen as far right. The line between far right or far left is non existent in reality so it’s past time we stopped pretending otherwise.
Extremism is always toxic.
Hitler absolutely did not start as a socialist?! He is a far right figure; Nazism was a movement designed to create a far right mass politics to defeat the mass politics of the left. The line between far right and far left is in fact extremely glaring, which is why Hitler murdered socialists in large numbers.
Richard Evans' multi volume history of the third reich is a good place to start reading about these issues. Robert O. Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism is excellent also.
Aha. it's that word, "socialist" in "National Socialist?" That's where you're getting stuck, am I right?
Did you know that TV dinners don't contain any TVs, that hot dogs aren't actually made of dogs and that rock n' roll songs are almost never about rocks OR dinner rolls?
The more you know!
I’m addressing widespread dissemination of their credos online. You’re correct that when they show who they are we should pay attention.
The first amendment protects the right speech free from government suppression. It does not apply to private individuals or organizations. I don’t have to allow Nazis to stand on my front porch and spout inflammatory rhetoric. I don’t see why you think Substack has to support hate speech and disinformation.
Thanks, Noah and others who wrote this letter. This is a huge problem. My concern, though, is that as with Twitter Substack's founders have little incentive to do anything about this while they continue to rake in the bucks off nazis – unless a critical mass of other writers earning an income leave the platform. It seems a few have, but the Substackers Against Nazis letter seems to be asking for those in power to change their policies (how often does that happen??) rather than proposing a solution, i.e, taking our writing elsewhere. I'm thinking about migrating to Ghost in the new year. I have very few paid subscribers so I wouldn't stand to lose financially. I know that could be an issue for others. But that's part of the problem, and I suspect Hamish and co are very well aware of that.
I'm not really sure what next steps are. I'm pretty reluctant to leave, since this is the only platform where I've ever gotten a sustainable income from contributions, pretty much. But yeah, I don't know what happens next.
Yes, this is a problem. There shouldn't be a situation where only those who can afford to leave can. Then again, like with Twitter, IG and FB, tying independent writing, art and progressive commentary/conversations to these free-market platforms has proven a real double-edged sword. And again, the owners are very well aware of that.
I am not as surprised as many over the proliferate resurragence of these despicable humans. They have been in the underbelly of America for a very long time. We have tried ignoring them and now here they are, almost in our living rooms, spueing their vileness as if it were just another point of view. No matter how many warnings we are given, somehow collectively, we refuse to believe the danger we are all in. I'm holding my breath.
Slippery slope. Let it be.
Glad you weren't around in the 1940s!
Thinking about the extent of the ‘cultural revolution’ mayhem and those ffg little read books it’s a good thing I’m not God (whatever that means) because I’d have booped the ‘flood’ button.
ok, great
first of all, i’d just like to say that i find lots of stuff offensive and disgusting
and i’d love to deplatform everything i hate
but we need to be logical here
so, to start out with
what kind of impartial, logically coherent rules do you think we should adopt ?
The letter is first of all just asking substack’s founders not to promote white nationalists. If you oppose all censorship, you could push for them to stop banning adult content as a start.
what kind of impartial, logically coherent rules do you think we should adopt ?
I just answered you. They can enforce their current tos. And stop banning adult content.
i see, so you're suggesting the current TOS is logically coherent and impartial
Seems like a reasonable place to start.
zoiks
Thanks for sharing this! I’m ashamed to say that I didn't even know this problem existed. Writers like you are why I am on Substack.
How broken they are, to pay and spew foul content. Can’t we do something about the free range Nazi problem?